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	<title>Comments on: Poll: Ramon Thomas Vs. The White Boy&#8217;s Club</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/</link>
	<description>Entrepreneur  &#124;  Writer  &#124;  Speaker</description>
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		<title>By: white boys</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-43319</link>
		<dc:creator>white boys</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 22 Jun 2008 09:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-43319</guid>
		<description>[...] white people out of the corporate field, and in to the ???self-starting??? industry of the web? ...http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/Hotline On Call: Clinton Dines With The &quot;White Boys&quot;The &quot;White Boys&quot; ?? as this group of Bill [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] white people out of the corporate field, and in to the ???self-starting??? industry of the web? &#8230;<a href="http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/Hotline" rel="nofollow">http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/Hotline</a> On Call: Clinton Dines With The &#8220;White Boys&#8221;The &#8220;White Boys&#8221; ?? as this group of Bill [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Clive Simpkins</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42663</link>
		<dc:creator>Clive Simpkins</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 10 Jun 2008 23:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42663</guid>
		<description>Hi Ramon! Correction: actually not following your activities anyplace. ;-) Just commenting on what you told us about your frenetic networking via those and other media. 

My overwhelming impression on the topic is that the said social media and its acolytes succeed in glorifying style over substance - and elevating superficiality to an art-form. Which I consider to be a scary trend. It&#039;s almost the cyber equivalent of the neurologically disengaged British tea-party circuit of old. ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Ramon! Correction: actually not following your activities anyplace. ;-) Just commenting on what you told us about your frenetic networking via those and other media. </p>
<p>My overwhelming impression on the topic is that the said social media and its acolytes succeed in glorifying style over substance &#8211; and elevating superficiality to an art-form. Which I consider to be a scary trend. It&#8217;s almost the cyber equivalent of the neurologically disengaged British tea-party circuit of old. ;-)</p>
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		<title>By: Ramon Thomas</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42576</link>
		<dc:creator>Ramon Thomas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Jun 2008 13:29:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42576</guid>
		<description>Hey Clive I am glad to see you have so much free time that are following my activities on Facebook and MyGenius. It was good to meet you in person at the NSASA event in March because you are a legend.

Anyway I never aimed to offer any solutions because I wanted to present a list of people that you or me could work with, like Mandy did in her article. Those people are each doing their own thing, in their own respective ways, to grow and develop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Clive I am glad to see you have so much free time that are following my activities on Facebook and MyGenius. It was good to meet you in person at the NSASA event in March because you are a legend.</p>
<p>Anyway I never aimed to offer any solutions because I wanted to present a list of people that you or me could work with, like Mandy did in her article. Those people are each doing their own thing, in their own respective ways, to grow and develop.</p>
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		<title>By: ismail</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42472</link>
		<dc:creator>ismail</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 22:23:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42472</guid>
		<description>wow, heated debate. I think Mandy has launched a can of worms. So kudo&#039;s for her for pointing it out but we need to move part that. As i said in my post i seriously think debating this issue actually does nothing. we can debate till we are blue in the face. The fact is it exists(The reasons it exists is not important) what is more important is we need to realise THis: Mandy said in her latest post 

&quot;Business is a matter of supply and demand. New media skills are in short supply and great demand. Right now the white boys hold the lion&#039;s share of the supply. The way I see it, they have little interest or incentive to let go and empower others to share in the wealth, skills or technology in the new media industry.&quot;

http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/specialfocus/dewaal080606.asp?O=FPH

However, i think i sufficiently argued enough on my blog that it makes much more economic sense for EVERYONE involved. The specifics of this is a long analysis to explain, but lets make it short and to the point as i can, the fact that more people are included makes the MARKET size bigger, the fact that more people are aware of it, INCREASES the reach of social media, this has a knock on effect where MORE people are using social media/new media and therefore companies that invest in this get a higher ROI and yes, consultants out there can charge more. If you are not following my argument, please comment back. Maybe this warrants a further blog post. But that being said, if for nothing else by virtue of more people being involved, ANYONE INVOLVED In the industry is better off (NOT WORSE, contrary to popular belief)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>wow, heated debate. I think Mandy has launched a can of worms. So kudo&#8217;s for her for pointing it out but we need to move part that. As i said in my post i seriously think debating this issue actually does nothing. we can debate till we are blue in the face. The fact is it exists(The reasons it exists is not important) what is more important is we need to realise THis: Mandy said in her latest post </p>
<p>&#8220;Business is a matter of supply and demand. New media skills are in short supply and great demand. Right now the white boys hold the lion&#8217;s share of the supply. The way I see it, they have little interest or incentive to let go and empower others to share in the wealth, skills or technology in the new media industry.&#8221;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/specialfocus/dewaal080606.asp?O=FPH" rel="nofollow">http://www.itweb.co.za/sections/specialfocus/dewaal080606.asp?O=FPH</a></p>
<p>However, i think i sufficiently argued enough on my blog that it makes much more economic sense for EVERYONE involved. The specifics of this is a long analysis to explain, but lets make it short and to the point as i can, the fact that more people are included makes the MARKET size bigger, the fact that more people are aware of it, INCREASES the reach of social media, this has a knock on effect where MORE people are using social media/new media and therefore companies that invest in this get a higher ROI and yes, consultants out there can charge more. If you are not following my argument, please comment back. Maybe this warrants a further blog post. But that being said, if for nothing else by virtue of more people being involved, ANYONE INVOLVED In the industry is better off (NOT WORSE, contrary to popular belief)</p>
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		<title>By: Nur Ahmad Furlong</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42450</link>
		<dc:creator>Nur Ahmad Furlong</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jun 2008 16:51:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42450</guid>
		<description>@ Mike, I would have thought you&#039;d see it&#039;s alot more serious than a fun question

I think people are hiding behind this issue by attacking insignificant aspects of the articles which were written and not being open and honest enough to admit that something is not 100% in the industry.

I agree with Darren&#039;s comment 100%

I also think, if you don&#039;t like Ramon, that does not make this whole debate a non-issue. I am very dissapointed that the defensive position is so immaturely being taken by the majority of white people. I thought there&#039;s be some more mature thinkers out there seeing everyone one is supposedly such an expert on communication.

On the other side of it I do believe there are many examples of integration, but it still pales in comparison the the overall representation.

Lets hope this whole debate does not change the way we interact with each other and start looking at each other&#039;s skin colour with more disdain. This is less about there being 2 camps and more about the web industry not keeping up with the greater integration taking place in the rest of society.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Mike, I would have thought you&#8217;d see it&#8217;s alot more serious than a fun question</p>
<p>I think people are hiding behind this issue by attacking insignificant aspects of the articles which were written and not being open and honest enough to admit that something is not 100% in the industry.</p>
<p>I agree with Darren&#8217;s comment 100%</p>
<p>I also think, if you don&#8217;t like Ramon, that does not make this whole debate a non-issue. I am very dissapointed that the defensive position is so immaturely being taken by the majority of white people. I thought there&#8217;s be some more mature thinkers out there seeing everyone one is supposedly such an expert on communication.</p>
<p>On the other side of it I do believe there are many examples of integration, but it still pales in comparison the the overall representation.</p>
<p>Lets hope this whole debate does not change the way we interact with each other and start looking at each other&#8217;s skin colour with more disdain. This is less about there being 2 camps and more about the web industry not keeping up with the greater integration taking place in the rest of society.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42413</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 19:30:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42413</guid>
		<description>Sheesh had no idea this would cause as much heated debate as it did - was really a fun question and nothing more...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sheesh had no idea this would cause as much heated debate as it did &#8211; was really a fun question and nothing more&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Cape Town's Favourite Son</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42386</link>
		<dc:creator>Cape Town's Favourite Son</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 11:31:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42386</guid>
		<description>I think an even more pressing issue is the cool Poll function you have there Mike. 

Come on, empower a coloured  - what tool are you using?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think an even more pressing issue is the cool Poll function you have there Mike. </p>
<p>Come on, empower a coloured  &#8211; what tool are you using?</p>
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		<title>By: redherring</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42383</link>
		<dc:creator>redherring</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:30:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42383</guid>
		<description>While I see it as a non-issue, I have to say it doesn&#039;t help &quot;whites&quot; to get defensive about it. Say sorry. Then carry on with your business. We don&#039;t have a foot to stand on.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I see it as a non-issue, I have to say it doesn&#8217;t help &#8220;whites&#8221; to get defensive about it. Say sorry. Then carry on with your business. We don&#8217;t have a foot to stand on.</p>
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		<title>By: Darren Ravens</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42382</link>
		<dc:creator>Darren Ravens</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 10:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42382</guid>
		<description>I think the whole &quot;Ramon VS The Whities&quot; way of framing this issue is deceptive.

The real issues IMO are:
- is there really a lack of transformation (I believe that there is) within out industry?
-  If we agree there is, should we be doing anything about it?
- if we say that we should, what can we do and how do we do so without marginalising anyone?

Simon makes an excellent point: &quot;I think the most effective way forward would be to acknowledge that more communication needs to take place in the local industry&quot;

Andrew Smith/Khathutshelo - bring in an interesting angle to the debate as well. And that&#039;s exactly what we need. Open debate with contrasting viewpoints.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the whole &#8220;Ramon VS The Whities&#8221; way of framing this issue is deceptive.</p>
<p>The real issues IMO are:<br />
- is there really a lack of transformation (I believe that there is) within out industry?<br />
-  If we agree there is, should we be doing anything about it?<br />
- if we say that we should, what can we do and how do we do so without marginalising anyone?</p>
<p>Simon makes an excellent point: &#8220;I think the most effective way forward would be to acknowledge that more communication needs to take place in the local industry&#8221;</p>
<p>Andrew Smith/Khathutshelo &#8211; bring in an interesting angle to the debate as well. And that&#8217;s exactly what we need. Open debate with contrasting viewpoints.</p>
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		<title>By: Andrew Smith</title>
		<link>http://www.mikestopforth.com/2008/06/03/poll-ramon-thomas-vs-the-white-boys-club/comment-page-1/#comment-42375</link>
		<dc:creator>Andrew Smith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jun 2008 08:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mikestopforth.com/?p=785#comment-42375</guid>
		<description>Khathutshelo raised an interesting point. Perhaps affirmative action is forcing talented white people out of the corporate field, and in to the &quot;self-starting&quot; industry of the web? A higher proportion of equally talented black people prefer to climb the corporate ladder?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Khathutshelo raised an interesting point. Perhaps affirmative action is forcing talented white people out of the corporate field, and in to the &#8220;self-starting&#8221; industry of the web? A higher proportion of equally talented black people prefer to climb the corporate ladder?</p>
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